Metagame - SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [NEW TIERING RESULTS POST 11597] (2024)

- This is a terrible ban, and it was done in a terrible manner with zero consistent logic. A few players deciding on a whole mechanic is wholly wrong. The ban gained traction based on results from a risky Darkrai set, and a niche Iron Valiant set. You already know what this means: there were some especially dramatic victories in tournament/high level play and players are not happy about it.

- That's the only real reason. Everything else has been pseudo intellectual arguments to justify a supermajority of a minority of the player base making this change. I'll break down the integrity of the ban below, and explain why it truly is just a kneejerk reaction with no foundational argument:

- This was never about sleep specifically, because mons like A-Ninetales and Amoongus have been running around using Hypnosis and Spore to no complaint for a while now, and before that Clodsire and Torkoal made healthy use of Yawn (and mons like Hippowdon in lower tiers). Beyond that, Sleep Clause acted as a proper buffer for sleep abuse, and the "cartridge integrity" argument is pointless because we already know that Smogon does not always go by cartridge. Just banning OHKO moves is against cartridge so why pretend to be in hysterics about Sleep Clause? If sleep was truly such an overwhelming issue, why ignore it until now?

- This isn't about status in general, because freeze and paralysis (which has been nerfed over the gens) are not included in the argument. If status that randomly hampered your ability to act was an issue, why not also ban anything that can freeze or paralyze the opponent? A comprehensive ban of anything that randomly hampers actions would be a more grounded implementation of the complaint of the council based on their pseudo-arguments against sleep, which are that it is "uncompetitive" and can wildly swing momentum. Don't freeze and paralysis do the same thing?

- This isn't about RNG in general. We already know many moves and abilities that players are perfectly okay with and use have chances to afflict status such as is the case of a plethora of moves, and abilities like Static and Flame Body. So a random chance of status being applied and swinging momentum in your favor in a manner totally outside of both players' control ALREADY exists and is CONDONED. So it's not about sleep, it's not about agency-robbing status, and it's not about RNG. The ban is inconsistent with the logic of any of these arguments.

So what is this about? This is about tourney players getting caught with their pants down versus a risky Sash Darkrai set spamming hypnosis, and Iron Valiant (yet again) showing up with a set that allows it to really abuse it's booster energy speed strategy to overwhelm the opponent. The end results of this ban shows how terrible it is:

- Darkrai will languish as a subpar special attacker and probably continue to drop in the tiers (because the mon is designed around abusing sleep)

- Iron Valiant will be perfectly fine because that mon can do literally whatever it wants with its massive movepool, and booster energy speed.

- offense is even MORE powerful now because defensive mons can no longer threaten sleep on greedy switch ins and boost attempts.

- many mons like Amoongus, Torkoal, Hippowdon, Alolan Ninetales, and others will lose a desperately needed tool to maintain viability wherever they are.

The easiest way to sum up how stupid and illogical this ban is is this: Sweet Kiss is banned, but Dire Claw is not.

The logically consistent choices when dealing with this scenario, if they cared at all about competitive integrity and being part of a community, would have been:

1. Nothing at all. Darkrai and Valiant are relying on risky and niche sets to surprise their opponents hoping for RNG to save them. It is what it is. If a player wants to bet the farm on that, let them.

2. If you feel you MUST ban a move, ban hypnosis. A 60 accuracy sleep move that is predominantly learned by mons that do not need it in the meta and it feels really grimy when it lands and you get a lot of momentum. Darkrai, Valiant, and A9 are the biggest abusers and aside from Darkrai, these mons don't need Hypnosis to do their job and do it well. Darkrai will end up dropping tiers but, it is what it is.

3. If you MUST ban a mon, then ban Darkrai and Valiant to Ubers. Darkrai will always be rage inducing by design because it's supposed to abuse sleep, and Valiant is one of the most abusable pokemon in the game right now. It can do everything but wall. Status, boost, bait and trap (with d bond), sweep, stallbreak, chip, revenge kill... it does EVERYTHING with an absolutely MASSIVE toolkit that leaves it wanting for just about nothing. It has a move and plan for EVERY mon in the tier, and with a winning matchup to boot. I'm honestly surprised it and Kingambit haven't been banned yet, but you know what, It's good they haven't. Power is a good presence in any meta, as the absence of overwhelming power results in slow grindy matches that nobody but people with unreasonable amounts of freetime can enjoy. (This is within reason of course, so, for example, Gambit is only scary as the last mon, and valiant is scary if built correctly and entered at the right time) but I digresss.

4. If you really want to pretend this is about player agency and pure competitiveness, then you MUST ban ALL RNG factors. Get rid of any move that has a chance to apply ANY secondary effect, and remove status moves that apply any status to you. You must also remove all non-100 accurate moves. I don't think I need to explain why this is stupid.